(Continuation of discussion from NYT Fiction Forum)
We have been discussing the Heaney translation of Beowulf. So far, we have discussed kennings and wordhoards, sources of Beowulf, mythology of various cultures as related to Beowulf, John Grigsby's book, "Beowulf & Grendel" and his theory that Beowulf is a story of one religion being usurped by another, the impact of the Christian religion on Beowulf. Very briefly touched upon Sutton Hoo, Edda, and the role of women in Beowulf.
(McGrail have I missed anything?)
Anything related to Beowulf or the Ancients is fair game.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
34 comments:
One aspect we didn't get into was the importance of the hall. Many of the commentaries I've read point out that when Beowulf took over the hall at night, he was also usurping the power of the king. The hall was important because this is where the king performed all the "trappings" of royalty. We associate halls in ancient stories with feasting and merrymaking, but the hall was also where the king would bestow honors and give gifts. Gift-giving was particularly important because the giving of gold, rings, arms, etc insured loyalty.
No, nothing left out. This looks great, much better than it did on the first day both in terms of aesthetics and functionality.
I'll start posting on Beowulf again soon, maybe later today. In the meantime we might want to start thinking about a next book. Maybe something for May because I think most will be focusing on Lolita in April. And the Assia Weevil biography will take some time.
A friend here has suggested a book to me called The Five Stages of Greek Religion by Gilbert Murray. I have not read it. One to consider anyway, and there's also always the Grigsby book.
Hopefully, JohnR60 and Pugetopolis will show up. They should both have some great suggestions for a next Ancient Literature text.
The hall might be viewed symbolically as well, like the hoard. Just as it is the seat of the kingdom, so to might it be viewed as the seat of the soul, of home, of nobility, of glory, of everything that makes the character what he or she is. Compare the hall of Grendel’s Modor to the other halls, for instance. Like the hoard, the hall stands for more than sanctuary. I remember being struck with the close feeling I had on first reading that Grendel’s was stalking a hall, and not just a countryside. He’d invaded not just a palace or a castle or a home, but a realm, the realm of man, or of a kind of man. The concept of halls in this poem makes me think too of the concept of guest friendship that we see in the ancient Greek writings.
By the way, I've seen JRCLARK here. Is that the same person as JohnR60?
Have you any word as to whether pugetopolis, or any others, will be joining us?
I hadn't extended the idea as far as Grendel's mother's mere. That makes sense, the place sounds absolutely hellish.
Not sure whether that's Johnr60 or not, I thought it might be.
Mcgrail..."The Five Stages of Greek Religion" sounds interesting to me. The other things that come to mind are the Grigsby book and a while back, Johnr60 suggested we might like to read Joseph Campbell's "Creative Mythology: The Masks of God."
This would be a good place to discuss Campbell. The writing is so rich that there would be plenty to discuss.
I've been sitting here trying to think of the right word.
I don't think Creative Mythology is the best book I've ever read but it's damn close. What it is is the most rewarding book I've ever read. I've done it at least 7 times in the last 10 years, and each time I pick it up for a reference, I can't put it down. I've never, and I say that literally, been in any book discussion that I couldn't use it as a reference.
McGrail, Have you already read Campbell?
Only some, a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I haven't made it through any of his books in the entirety, yet.
While I read those Nabokov short stories, I'm also beginning Campbell's "The Masks of God." If you ever want to discuss this, just let me know. I think Johnr might discuss, too, after the forums close.
Of course, maybe the forums aren't all closing. It's hard to tell from the notice exactly what is meant by "Books discussion groups."
John Grigsby addresses the symbol of the circumscribed cross. The symbol comes up in Chapter 5, entitled Scyld Scefing. Scyld is a child brought by the sea. He is the ancestor of the Scyldings.
Grigsby has reproduced a couple of petroglyphs that incorporate the symbol. One shows a solar boat from prehistoric Scandinavia. The symbol might be seen as a sail, or as a thing that the boat is transporting. In one of the petroglyphs, the symbol appears to be floating a bit above the boat.
Grigsby also gives us a picture of an Egyptian solar barque. The disc is there, but without the cross inside. The disc is again placed toward the bow of the boat. A similar, smaller disc floats above a passenger in the Egyptian boat.
Grigsby gives us a another petroglyph. This one shows two men. The one on the right is said to have a shield. The shield is the circumscribed cross. The symbol appears in place of where the man's chest and abdomen would be. (The cross is more like a giant plus sign as opposed to the cross of the ancient Roman crucifixions.)
Grigsby suggests that the symbol depicts a shield with a sheaf of corn atop it. The symbolism may have arisen in connection with the arrival of agricultural ideas by way of tradesmen who traveled by boat.
There is also a connection between the sun (circle/disc) and planting (cross/sheaf). The same goes for the moon. Plantings were connected to the phases of the moon.
He also suggests a more symbolic meaning. The ship itself was a religious symbol in ancient Scandinavia. The sun -- like Scyld -- goes from deep to deep, rising in one sea, setting in another. It is a solar boat.
There is a connection between shields and ships. Grigsby covers this, referencing Snorri, Taliesin, and Egyptian myth.
Grigsby gets much value out of this analysis, but the thought occurred to me that the symbol works not just in terms of unlocking the mechanical aspects of an earlier religion (gods, allegorical connections, etc.), but also in terms of more basic concepts.
The symbols seem to me to speak to the existence of the soul and its journeys.
Rolleston 1911:
>The ship was called the Boat of the Sun. It was the vessel in which the Sun-god performed his journeys; in particular, the journey which he made nightly to the shores of the Other-world, bearing with him in his bark the souls of the beatified dead.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr02.htm
Does Grigsby mention the spiral?
Grigsby's idea is that Skyld Scefing was delivered to the people from the sea and at his death, returned to the sea on his dragon ship. He extends this idea to Beowulf. In the beginning of the poem, Beowulf comes across the sea to slay Grendel. At his death, he is returned to the sea in his burial ship.
As the book goes on, Grigsby posits that the kings leading up to Hrothgar ruled for one year and then were sacrificed as part of a fertility rite. Grendel's mother becomes the goddess who drowns and strangles the king during sex. The goddess is aided in this by the man who will become the next king and who will rule for one year....Grigsby speculates that Beowulf was part of a new god culture, was in fact a god himself. He was the first man who was able to overcome the goddess (Grendel's mother), thus ending the necessity of a king sacrifice.
Grigsby's comparison of Beowulf, Gawain and the Green Knight, and Icelandic Sagas is well done. Also gives some good background on the reasons for Hall burings.
One idea I was very interested in is the recurring motif of the talking head in Celtic and other ancient literature. Grigsby writes: "The Greek hero Orpheus provides us with one clue as to how a severed head could give knowledge and its connection with the theft of soma---his head is severed by the maenads and floats to the isle of Lesbos, where it becomes an oracle. For the Celts, the head was the seat of the soul and the motif of a talking head frequently occurs in their myths as demonstrated in the myths of Bran and Conaire. Certain druidic rites referred to in the myths suggest that severed heads could be used for oracular purposes. The origins of this concept are to be found, once again, in the imagery of the vegetal world."
Because of the recurrence of talking heads in ancient literature, Grigsby surmises that Beowulf's taking of Grendel's head after he slayed Grendel's mother was more than trophy-taking, and that it played an integral role in Beowulf's overthrowing of the role of the Goddess.
I do not share your enthusiasm for Mr. Grigsby's effort. I found the thread of evidence so tenuous that Skuld herself couldn't be bothered to cut it. The book is littered with so many "It may be ..." and "It is possible that ..." qualifiers that Mr. Grigsby soon lost credibility with me. I slogged my way through the pages that followed the midpoint of the study purely for the benefit of obtaining the mythological and legend related information and observations at which Grigsby does indeed excel.
I think this work could have done without many of the incidental (extremely circumstantial) 'evidentiary' asides and could have been tightened enormously, so enormously that the idea would have made for a good article/essay as opposed to a tortured, labored, struggling, staggering, finally limping book.
Did it seem to you that Grigsby's wooden exposition might possibly have suffered from doubts in his own theory? Surely, he doubted it, as evidenced by his near constant efforts to 'explain' rather than educate.
Still, a brave effort, and in the end a reminder about what could be done with literature of this sort had the cultures not been supressed and had they not (because of that suppression) been lost to time.
And though I may be mistaken, I did not see mention of a spiral patterns in the Grigsby book. I am probably wrong about that, as he did seem to squeeze in mention of practically every other seemingly disparate event, sign and sigil that occurred to him.
Reader5232...I would agree that Grigsby seems to doubt his own theory, and he does take quite a few too many pages in getting the reader to his point...that perhaps Beowulf was a god. I didn't feel he did a good job of connecting his initial premise that Beowulf was part of an overthrowing of the goddess/fertility cults with his conclusion.
But I very much enjoyed the work of literary comparison done by Grigsby. His comparison of themes common to Icelandic Saga, Beowulf, Sir Gawain, the Majabaratha and the Morrigan was quite enlightening. Grigsby also answered questions I had while reading Beowulf concerning Tacitus' observations of Germania.
I think that I'm finding Campbell's Creative Mythology and Graves' White Goddess somewhat more helpful in understanding the mythological setting for Beowulf.
And talk about synchronicity...apparently "The White Goddess" was a great favorite of Ted Hughes. He was given a copy by his English teacher before he left for Cambridge. By the time he left, his copy was quite well-worn.
As mentioned, I think The White Goddess is an incredible book (so far). I am glad you are reading it. Tackling this book, along with Campbell, without the contributions of the people here, would be daunting.
I was quite moved by the tribute movie to Hughes, which pugetopolis posted. Glad to hear that TWG was an important work for him. May may prove to be as much a month of growth (for me) as April was.
How far are you along in Campbell? I may take him slow because a lot of my reading time will be devoted to TWG and Hughes poetry. I'll finish the biography and the Eco book in the next few days, I suspect.
I'm only on Chapter 4 of the Campbell. The book has such depth, I think it can only be appreciated by slow, careful reading.
I did finish the biography, but now I'm looking up the poems it references. I've had no trouble locating most of the poems by Hughes, but there are only two surviving poems by Assia Weevil, and it's difficult to find anything of David Weevil.
Wevill.....
hoffman,
I refuse to believe that you work or that you are one person. I am pulling out all the stops and I simply can not catch up. I've freed up as much time as I can, and I've read just about none of Campbell, 30 pages of Wevill, 2 chapters of The White Goddess and 85% of Speak, Memory (not to mention all of Lolita, Pale Fire, Beowulf & Grendel) and I still am a good two or three books back.
Reader5232...I teach reading to early elementary students who are having problems until about 11 o'clock two or three mornings a week, teach piano three days a week at various hours. I am a bit of an insomniac, and when the hubby starts to snore, I generally hop out of bed and into the books.
Hello everybody! I do not know where to start but hope this site will be useful for me.
Hope to get some assistance from you if I will have some quesitons.
Thanks and good luck everyone! ;)
Post a Comment